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Decision Time on a Replacement Tire

Av8ing1

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#21
HRJ,

I swear...just when you think you got something understood!

With regard to the Michelin PS4S tires and that michelinman.com link where I got the 104Y info, I noticed there are TWO listings to "buy" 4S tires - for what would appear to be the same dang tire. They do have different model numbers, but everything else about the tires seems the same. No separate load index ratings on that buy page - the load index ratings if they are different aren't displayed. So what's that all about??

ARE there two models of your summer Pirelli tires - one model rated 104Y and another one 107Y? Why would a company do that? Someone seeking to buy OEM replacement summer Pirelli tires could easily forget about, or not know about, the 107Y rating and buy what looks exactly like their OEM tires on tirerack.com - but rated 104Y. That might present a safety hazard.

Fast forward to the confusing scene of a purple Challenger Red Eye Wide Body, previously loaded with people and some luggage, consumed by fire by the side of a road. The people are standing there looking at the car and their belongings burning up. They all have agreed the car seemed to have had four simultaneous tire blowouts for no apparent reason. Bits and pieces of rubber sidewall behind the car support this assessment. Fortunately for them, the simultaneous explosive blowout of the tires kept the car going straight down the road, sparking 4th of July-like sparklers while grinding down the newly purchased custom wheel rims of the avid Hellcatforum.org member - until the people could bail out as it screeched to a smoking stop. Unfortunately, the prolonged sparking inside the wheel wells ignited oil fumes emanating from an aftermarket oil catch can *nod to DGatzby's catch can thread*, which had ruptured from the combined shock wave of the exploding tires. The impressive catch can oil fume fire had rapidly spread via ruptured brake fluid lines to engulf the entire vehicle.

Ambulance pulls up, followed by ambulance chasing attorney. He looks at the scene, turns to the owner of the car and says, "Looks like the county is going to bill you big time for those 300' long furrows your wheel rims dug in the asphalt, plus the giant melted spot where the car lies. I'm a liability specialist!"

He looks over at the passengers. "Any of you suffering? Any aches and pains? Any emotional trauma? Expecting any long term ill-effects?"

They all nod eagerly. He turns to the owner and says, "I sure hope your tires had the correct load index rating. If not, you're f*#ked! Insurance won't cover it."

The owner looks shocked, and then says, "They were 104Y rated high performance summer tires! They can go faster than 186 mph, and I was only doing 60!"

The attorney says, "I know cars. Your car specificed 107Y tires. It's called negligence, Mister." He turns to the passengers. "Any of you feeling so poorly you're anticipating long term trauma, and would like to seek punitive damages for negligence?"

They all nod eagerly. The attorney peers again at the burning hulk. "Is that a catch can I see?" The owner slowly nods.

"I thought so. More negligence! I always tell people they're NEVER worth the extra 37 horsepower."
Well, I'm just going to wrap my catch can in a protective Kevlar blanket and never allow passengers in my car. My risk assessment indicates this would adequately mitigate risk of fire and frivolous law suits due to 104Y rated high performance tires. Yes might still loose tires and wheels but they don't last long anyway and who doesn't want an excuse for new wheels?
 


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#22
How often do I drive over 186 compared to how often do I want to hook is why I went with drag radials. I don’t daily so the choice was easy but even if I did I’d still choose nitto drs just my opinion
 


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Magnified

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#23
305 MT ET Street SS on mine right now out back with stock size PS4S up front. You can get away with DRs in the wet if you're careful, in my experience, but I've also seen some horror stories. Decide how you use the car my friend, then pick the tire that's best for your application.
 


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Thread Starter #24
Thanks for all the help you guys. I have decided to just replace the tire with the original all-season. With so few miles on my tires, I'll wait to upgrade.
 


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#25
Thanks for all the help you guys. I have decided to just replace the tire with the original all-season. With so few miles on my tires, I'll wait to upgrade.
Guys have replaced the stock Pirelli's on their stock Devil's Rim wheels with 315/35-20 tires, and there is a lot of support for the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires (a summer tire, but if you live in Florida there will be very few days when you'd have to worry about cold weather and the tire compound). If you did that on all four corners you'd gain a little tire width. It is probably what I'll do at some point. Just a thought?
 


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Thread Starter #26
Guys have replaced the stock Pirelli's on their stock Devil's Rim wheels with 315/35-20 tires, and there is a lot of support for the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires (a summer tire, but if you live in Florida there will be very few days when you'd have to worry about cold weather and the tire compound). If you did that on all four corners you'd gain a little tire width. It is probably what I'll do at some point. Just a thought?
Thanks Finface. I just ordered the OEM 305/35-20 (one tire only) from TireRack. I'll go with 315's once I replace all 4 tires. Just trying to save a little money for now.
 


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#27
I'm going to wear out my stock tires before replacing them too.

There is a Challenger owner who posted here who went with 315/35-20 on stock Devil's Rims and he was very pleased. They have a little greater diameter than the 305/35's - no problem in the rear - so the question was would they ever rub inside the front wheel wells. I can't attest about that for myself. There is probably more than one forumite who knows the definitive answer and hopefully they will say something here for both your, and my, sakes.
 


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#28
Check them, the stockers, as they age. Mine wore badly near the end and one went kerplunk. Look for the thread about taking a lathe to the tire.
 


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#29
Was thinking again about tires since I now have my aftermarket wheels (see DGatzby's thread "Aftermarket parts - what works and what is a waste of cash?") and remembered this tire thread. Today I googled questions about load ratings, since it seems most replacement tires for the Pirelli's on our Hellcats have lower load ratings. 107 is our car's tire load rating, but I had trouble finding any of the tires experienced recommend in that 107 rating. You see a lot of 104 load rated tires. Speed ratings don't seem to be a problem - almost all the high performance summer tires can be had with the highest speed ratings.

Somebody posted this PDF chart on another forum. It is a guide that allows for lower load rated tires to be inflated to higher psi's, which increases their effective load rating. In the case of our heavy cars our stock special Pirelli's are 107 rated and support 1,946 pounds at 32 psi - up to 2,149 pounds at 36 psi. According to this chart a 104 rated tire inflated to 35 psi has almost the same support of the 107 rated tire at 32 psi. So, for what it's worth, adjustments are available.
 


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Magnified

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#30
I never skimp on load or speed rating.
 


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I never skimp on load or speed rating.
Hi Magnified,

Yes, that is good advice.

To throw another muddy-the-waters concept into the discussion, that chart has an "XL Reinforced" section. I checked the load rating again at Tire Rack for the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires I want. These front Michelin's in size 315/30-20 are 104Y, and have an XL in their description.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...R0PS4SXL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

It would seem this specific tire should be referenced in the XL Reinforced section for maximum loads at various psi's, not the standard section of the psi adjustment chart. I don't know the answer to that. Anyone?

Looking up the "XL Reinforced" values they show a significantly reduced load rating at a normal psi of 32 compared to a 104Y rated tire in the standard tire section - and you only get up to its maximum load rating of 1,984 at 42 psi (vice 36 psi for a standard tire). If this IS the case then these tires would probably never be mounted by a tire shop - for liability reasons.

The bigger rear PS4S 345/30-20's have a load rating of 106Y, which is almost the "legal" rating posted on the door frame of my car of 107.

I doubt I'm going to run my car on any tires I buy at their maximum load, exerted by the pure weight of the car (and me). But HPDE maximum cornering will exert heavy loads on the tires, especially the front tires. I read that part of the required load rating of tires when they marry them up with vehicles is for "evasive" maneuvers.

Maybe somebody here on the forum who works with tires can provide some more definitive perspective.
 


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#32
The problem with any tire bigger than 285 up front tram lines like a mother f.. it’s a big difference between my charger and Redeye WB on normal crap roads of the NE
 


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The problem with any tire bigger than 285 up front tram lines like a mother f.. it’s a big difference between my charger and Redeye WB on normal crap roads of the NE
Bingo.... nice to use the fronts as spares for the rear, but comes with some trade offs
 


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The problem with any tire bigger than 285 up front tram lines like a mother f.. it’s a big difference between my charger and Redeye WB on normal crap roads of the NE
I've felt this once or twice with the stock 305's around Kentucky, but in general not a problem here.

The replacement tires, and this whole load rating question, would primarily be for road course driving on smooth asphalt.
 


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I have run 325/30 ..... 345/30. Never had a computer bark yet.

What did you expect a vanilla customer service rep would tell you about modifying your vehicle.

I would sell the Triumph wheels and just use the 11” square stuff. April is next month, you have been fucking with it for a year.
 


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DGatzby, you wrote;

"I have run 325/30 ..... 345/30. Never had a computer bark yet."

Helpful reply. It's a small total tire diameter distinction, but the 315/30 total diameter is 0.2" smaller than the 325/30, and neither is stock tire diameter. As I said I didn't think it would cause a problem. Thinking this forum was a place to float ideas and concerns about performance ideas I posted. I want to know what I'm doing, just like everyone else. I also don't need to order the tires for a few weeks, so why not ask the forum regulars their opinion? Unless it would be to avoid...sarcasm?

"What did you expect a vanilla customer service rep would tell you about modifying your vehicle."

I confess...I wasn't thinking that smaller diameter tires in front, and larger diameter tires in back, than stock on the same R20 rim size, constituted modifying my vehicle. My bad.

Having never spoken with Dodge customer service before I was actually hoping the question might be forwarded to an engineer at Dodge. There are design parameters for anti-skid sensors, and traction control computers to function within, so a technical answer is out there somewhere in FCA land. There are less authoritative answers here, from people like you who have experimented for years with our cars and have a technical education who I'd have a high confidence level believing, and people who blow answers out their buttholes without much forethought or knowledge (like everywhere in life). If I'm going to be criticized I'd much rather it be for seeking factual information than feeding people uncertainties. I did get a Dodge US Customer Care reply late yesterday - you'll love it. The agent wrote;

"I have received information from our Research Team. They are recommending that you use the information on tire sizes located on the placard. I believe it should be in your glove box.

Unfortunately, we are not able to offer any suggestions that are related to modifications that varies from what is considered Stock on the vehicle.

I'm sorry that I don't have better information."

Unhelpful reply from Dodge, but understandable from their lawyerly point of view. It's all about liability, and I should have thought it through and realized I'd get nothing other than that kind of answer. My bad again.

"I would sell the Triumph wheels and just use the 11” square stuff. April is next month, you have been fucking with it for a year."

Unhelpful reply.

The Triumph wheels are works of art, and thanks to you I asked Biz to make them stronger than their usual design to withstand forces generated in HPDE - like your Triumph Roadster wheels were upgraded. It's just a matter of picking tires to go with them. I actually haven't been "fucking with it for a year", although I take your point it is late in the game to be having any serious doubts. I've only been "fucking with it" for 10 months! Since you brought this timeline up I'll elucidate further for any forumites who may give a shit about my failure to forge ahead.

I ordered wheels (all of them 12" wide) and Pilot Cup 2 tires in exactly your tire size on June 16, 2020. Biz began telling me in July he was having difficulties getting his raw aluminum due to the pandemic, and also in July that he couldn't get Cup 2's in 325 and 345 sizes, but, he was hopeful. Months go by and I'm still hoping I can get the wheels with mounted tires in time to run them in October HPDE. Biz is telling me about his procurement problems from time to time (generally, me calling or emailing him), and my response is honestly being patient. The pandemic is screwing with everyone, especially out in Los Angeles last summer and fall when the infection and hospitalization rates hit the fan. It isn't that big a deal if the 2020 HPDE season in Kentucky passes without my new wheels. I tell Biz I'd rather have the wheels and tires done right than rush any aspect of the order. In the interim I began looking around at how many available tires are made to fit on 12" front wheels - in response to Biz's problems getting them - but also in response to your less than stellar experience with Cup 2's (I think you wound up liking them better by the end of the HPDE season). It turns out only three brands on Earth in the late fall of 2020 make 325/30R20 tires - Toyo 888's, Dunlops (at $850 per tire!) and Michelin Cup 2's - or any tires for 12" widths in ratios resulting in diameters that won't have a fender well rubbing problem (without modification of the fender wells). You told me the 888's got "greasy" when hot on tracks and to steer clear of them. Good intel and appreciated! Only now I'm looking at one (affordable) tire that will fit up front on a 12" custom wheel. In summer and fall of 2020 you were running multiple HPDE's, experimenting with AAD suspension settings and also swapping out your various wheels and tires, and you were finding out a variety of interesting things. One of which was the new information you weren't quite as happy as you thought you would be with the Michelin Cup 2's up front - both in handling (at times) and in wear pattern. I had another experienced HPDE driver and former racing participant tell me Cup 2's were really excellent tires, but he also cautioned me that when not hot enough they could surprise even experienced drivers with cold tire related loss of friction. When I ran the idea of Michelin 4S tires by him he said they would be a better, more predictable, safer choice for me as a Novice Class driver with almost the same grip (and more durable). And you had extolled the many virtues of your 4S tires, as have many others here.

So I decided to "fuck with it" in early September. I contacted Biz, who said he had no problem with an amended front wheel order (he said he was still having trouble with getting aluminum and no Cup 2's on the horizon). Given no harm, no foul money-wise to Triumph I changed my front wheel order to 11" wide wheels, and kept the 12" rear wheels, and changed all the tires to 4S's (which do come in 345/30 for the rears and 315/30's for the front - also stock 305/315's for the front). For any of you thinking, "but then you can't rotate tires front to rear" that was never going to be an option, according to my limited understanding, because these custom 12" front wheels are different from the 12" rear wheels. I didn't lose any future four square tire rotation flexibility going with 11" front wheels. There are many more brands and models of tires that fit on 11" wheels. I think this was a reasonable "fuck with it" decision, as I'd feel mighty chagrined were I to be stuck in the future with $2,000 custom front wheels and even fewer tire choices than three. Maybe even no choices? The whole point of a guy like me bending at the knee to you and other Track Gods like Trackday and Sad, and others here on the forum, is to learn from the mistakes of others. I even looked at the feasibility of mixing tire brands and models too. Cup 2's in back, 4S's in front - that sort of thing - to increase tire possibilities.

I've said it before, and I'll say it forever - I am more than grateful to you for sharing your real world discoveries and tips with me.

The rest of my wheel/tire story is Triumph got my wheels made by late September/early October, but Biz never could obtain my 4S tires (or the Cup 2's for that matter). When late November rolled around my local Tire Discounters store, where I was getting suspension alignments done, checked on availability of 4S tires in the sizes I want. Lo, and behold, the service manager said he could get them in about two weeks. I held off on ordering then because I didn't have the wheels yet. In a little gallows humor some inexperienced idiot First Officer might crash another cargo 767 and I'd never get my wheels. I talked this report about local availability over with Biz and we decided it would be best if Biz shipped me the wheels without tires. They arrived, beautifully packaged and flawlessly made, on December 9th. By this time the roads in northern Kentucky had been salted from a snowfall, and I'd taken my Challenger off liability insurance on December 1st for the winter (and my used truck's insurance too), and there was no HPDE until spring. I called to check on tire availability yesterday at Tire Discounters and got this caution - not from the service manager who last fall understood my wheel sizes and tire desires, but a different service manager, who told me he knew about Corvettes going into limp mode. WTF? I'd never heard about possible anti-skid or traction control problems because of wheel/tire diameters not being stock before. So I called my dealership's service department and talked to their service manager, who didn't know and gave me US Customer Service's number and recommended I ask the source. I'm trying to find the humor here that nobody fucking knows.

Switching up tire subjects a bit, but related...earlier in this same thread I learned about load ratings. That was an "ungood category" surprise! Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires, rated at (104Y), as are your Cup 2's, aren't appropriately load rated for our heavy Challengers which call for (107Y) load rated tires. If you look up buying replacement stock Pirelli's you'll probably still see, as I did last fall, that Tire Rack only lists the summer stock tire as having a (104Y) rating. More WTF! Last fall I could not find a way to order online a (107Y) rated Pirelli stock summer tire in 305/35R20 size. And in this thread a poster reported his stock summer Pirelli's ARE rated (107Y) on the sidewall, which makes total sense, but then why no retail replacements in (107Y)? Fuck it, I don't want them anyway. But I WOULD like to be able to find better (107Y) rated high performance tires for my new wheels in the sizes I need - and that right now seems an elusive hope. Fuck me.

There is a questionable workaround for (104Y) rated tires. By inflating (104Y) rated tires to 36 psi (cold), says a chart a poster in this thread referenced, their rating would escalate to match a 107 load rating. The maximum psi is 50 - so some room there - but they're going to heat up from 36 running hard on a curvy track. Sounds like a better option would be letting HPDE road friction and brake component heating raise the tire temperatures - and pressures of at least 36 psi. Like dodged (Ha! Pun!) replies from Dodge, the manual warning's legal reading for tire load ratings is worst case - it assumes a car loaded to the Challenger's maximum gross weight - not a car with a full tank of gas and nothing else in it but two adults. But, hey, looking at the manual just now there is ANOTHER warning. It says prolonged driving faster than 75 mph at maximum car weight may lead to catastrophic tire failure even with (107Y) rated tires. Hmmmm, wonder what prolonged driving at 80-130 mph, and cornering near the coefficient of friction limits, even with just my fat ass in the car might result in? And with (104Y) rated tires? The devil is usually in the details, which is why I want to know details. Fuck with one performance parameter here, maybe suffer a fucking serious consequence over there. Worst case maybe the consequence is a fireball.

So many little fucking things fucking with me! Some important, some maybe not. I'm not risk intolerant, never have been. Managing and understanding risk is what kept me from ever experiencing catastrophic failure in my previous career.

You're not the only one frustrated, DGatzby!

Best,

Finface
Tell ya what. Trade you for those 305/30’s, I’ll send you the 325/30 Cup 2’s. Just bought four because I could. I’ll put those on my street fronts and let you know how they work. Those are what I should have ordered instead of the extra two Cup 2’s. I am not frustrated at all. I was a former custom motorcycle rider/builder/owner. This is cake!

Run in the upper 30’s PSI range on the track and quit the load rating worry. Never seen anyone bust out one of these tires and we have busted on these Challengers BAD.

Your worried about wheels and tires for warranty? You still have all your AAD control arms? Different cradle bushings? A differential brace? Catch can? Front or rear shock tower supports? What brakes does it use?
 


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#37
I may have a unicorn, but a 305/35 rubs the front liner on a staggered 11” front. They wore/blew four different push pins off besides scraping my liners. I have told you, written you about that. Shared pictures with you to help you. Oh, also the rear front liner catches some rub also! That is why I just unexpectedly spent over $1,000, on shorter tires. Why else would I do that and remove $1,000 of perfectly good tires? 305/35’s will only work on the OEM 11” wide wheels on my car in the front.

Frustrating? No. I just don’t like repeating myself multiple times. Now you want info and you want to debate what I have told you AND TOLD BIZ in public? ASK biz why he was so worried about a 12” front, and only made one wheel for fit. Ask him about the confidential photos I sent him.
Here! No longer confidential, you want public info.

Here everyone, here is a picture of a 325/30 BARELY CLEARING when you turn the wheel. Note the rub - scraping marks from a 305/35. It got even worse last year and I could not allow it to continue. This was taken early last season. You stagger out an 11” wide custom wheel too far (to match a 12” wide rear) or use a 12” wide wheel up front and this may happen to your car with a TALL 305/35!

3B663029-7535-404E-8507-37BB3C95C195.jpeg

Go look at where your 11” wide front sits relative to your 12” wide rear. Same spot - staggers out to look right. Go for it. Others can help you.
 


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#38
For the visually and mechanically challenged. Sometimes a diagram of a problem helps.
3AF2C97A-C333-47F2-A3FA-F84B8D0DE30E.jpeg
 


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#39
A potential problem was raised today by someone at a tire store when I looked into ordering these different size front and rear tires. He didn't say I'd HAVE a problem, but he knew of car owners who HAD problems departing from stock "four square" wheels and tires. He said the anti-skid and traction controls might not work correctly (defined as full safety design functionality) - and possibly the sensors associated with anti-skid and traction controls might not like the differences in total tire diameter to the point where the car might go into limp mode.
While in theory that may be a problem, if you think about all the Hellcats out there running staggered tires and also so many of the fastest out there at the drag strip are running front/rear drag paks that are no where close to "square", I don't think this is much of a concern.
 




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