What good is a EV?

[DavidKFla]

 

[jroyk]

So we had an ice storm yesterday
Power is out everywhere since mid day yesterday

Guess who is not at work today






View attachment 98085

We got lucky here. About an eighth of an inch on the trees. Sunshine and 47 degrees this afternoon.

 

[Serbaped0]

I've read the similar reports on the cost to charge the EV's at fast chargers and the rate per KWH is significantly higher than when you charge them at home. Only 80% of the KWH that you purchase equates to the storage in the battery. That is where the Cost per Mile is higher than an Ice vehicle. To fully charge your battery at home on 110 VAC it'll take days to reach full charge. Do you suffer from range anxiety when you stop at a charger that isn't working ? As the battery degrades have you calculated in the cost to replace that $15,000 battery in the Cost per Mile? If you put in solar to generate your electricity. What is the average per KWH factoring in the cost of the solar panels without any subsidies? Yet again you are taking advantage of other taxpayers money to satisfy your own needs. Without the government subsidizing your need to be green only indicates it isn't a viable option to own an EV or own solar. If you put in a 220 VAC charger did you calculate that cost into what the Cost per Mile. What is the payback on all your investments. I'll lay odds on it that the equipment and car will need replaced well before you have recovered any savings you think you are getting in return.

There is more to it than what it costs to only charge the battery. There are the ancillary costs that most EV owners overlook to only satisfy their own look at me it only cost me X number of dollars to charge my battery and that my friend is only half the truth because the other half your just lying to yourself. When they start taxing you by the weight of your vehicle and by the mile ( you can start your crying now to get it out of your system )

The things you bring up are really important when considering the total cost and surely a lot of people miss those. You're right her on multiple angles, like the costs going up dramatically with certain 3rd party chargers. That said, I had done detailed cost analysis the EV still comes out cheaper in lifetime value.

Some notes on your concepts above:
- The payback period on the solar system is around 7 years. Make that 10 without the tax brakes. Say it makes power for 30 years (warranty ensures this). This would actually be a reduction in charging costs by around 2/3 from purchasing my own panels. This is at today's energy prices, which anyone should agree aren't likely to go down over the next 30 years. The investment is a fixed and one time cost.
- The average cost of an EV battery runs $10-$12K and can last up to 200K miles. The cost per mile here is probably better than a Hellcat when figuring $20K for an engine replacement and more for the transmission. Will the average lifespan of a Hellcat drivetrain will greatly exceed say 150K miles without rebuild or replacement?
- Gov't subsidies? Are we taking into account oil and gas subsidies and the massive defense spending that has been needed historically to keep this supply chain afloat? Brown University had done a study estimating around $4 trillion in military operations from 2001-2019. In addition to the direct costs of military operations, there are also other costs associated with protecting oil and gas interests. For example, a 2019 study by the Center for American Progress estimated that the U.S. military spends around $81 billion per year on protecting global oil supplies, including the cost of maintaining a presence in key oil-producing regions, conducting patrols in the Persian Gulf, and providing security for oil infrastructure.
- USA sourcing? Around 1/3 of the crude for our cars is imported while well over 90% of our electricity is sourced domestically. That was my original "made in USA" comment, although that veered into the physical production of components.


It's clear though that nobody in this thread cares about an actual comparison because EVs are so terrible. What would you pose as a better alternative way to reduce our greenhouse emissions? A lot of the policy around EVs assumes they are the best alternative but many of the drivers would consider other options.

 

[DGatzby]

Actually EV batteries like all other rechargeable batteries all age & degrade due to discharge/recharge cycles and not total miles. But carry on.

Your proud you took our tax money for your car, nice.

Your wrong on the current replacement value of batteries along with no of future costs, but again your spreadsheet is flawed on many accounts.

WTF does this have to do with the price of wheat in Denmark?

“Gov't subsidies? Are we taking into account oil and gas subsidies and the massive defense spending that has been needed historically to keep this supply chain afloat? Brown University had done a study estimating around $4 trillion in military operations from 2001-2019. In addition to the direct costs of military operations, there are also other costs associated with protecting oil and gas interests. For example, a 2019 study by the Center for American Progress estimated that the U.S. military spends around $81 billion per year on protecting global oil supplies, including the cost of maintaining a presence in key oil-producing regions, conducting patrols in the Persian Gulf, and providing security for oil infrastructure.”

If the policies of the previous administration would remain, we were a net petroleum exporter. Along with Canada and Mexico, we don’t need shit from the Middle East or anywhere else on earth. Fuck protecting the infinitely disturbed Middle East!

Electricity is sourced in the USA. Agree. But your first post told us about using wind and solar. The energy storage devices (batteries-materials) are NOT sourced here but purchased from our enemies! You avoid that discussion like the plague.

Greenhouse emissions? Give me a break! Discuss how much the USA pollutes compared with other countries please.

Policies say EV’s. Let me put this into simple terms to let you know why most of us are NOT EV positive, besides for the reasons @TraxMoe listed.

Not a one of us likes being told what to buy. Not a one of us likes what the current administration has done to attempt to MAKE us get EV’s because they wrecked our country in many ways in just two years! You sir have a common liberal mind that cannot understand any of that.

What good is that EV if you cannot charge it except at your home on your own system? You have not put forward any reasons to convince any of us. Actually if you would have said you are looking at a hybrid, I personally can understand that. But to attempt to make us believe an EV is ok in 2023? Nope not yet if at all, because the USA don’t have a plan or current resources for fueling EV’s. After the feds suck enough of you in, our electricity rates are going to be dramatically higher. What is bad is the feds are going to build the charging stations. That is socialism, sir. We live in the USA. I am a Disabled Vet along with many on here and we defended our freedom. You are complying we will not. I personally do not agree with using my money to pay you, to finance charging stations or to basically give any money directly or through tax benefits that help direct anyone to make different decisions or benefits that don’t effect 100% of us. Those tax credits and write offs for a EV purchase are not fair, period.

What do you pay for an EV for road taxes (building and maintenance dollars for your city, county, state and federal). We pay $0.15-$0.67 per gallon at the pump depending on your state. That’s $12 a Hellcat tank in California.

We know folks like you cannot be persuaded the same as you understand we will not comply and be persuaded to the other direction.

 

[Paladin06]

Actually EV batteries like all other rechargeable batteries all age & degrade due to discharge/recharge cycles and not total miles. But carry on.

Your proud you took our tax money for your car, nice.

Your wrong on the current replacement value of batteries along with no of future costs, but again your spreadsheet is flawed on many accounts.

WTF does this have to do with the price of wheat in Denmark?

“Gov't subsidies? Are we taking into account oil and gas subsidies and the massive defense spending that has been needed historically to keep this supply chain afloat? Brown University had done a study estimating around $4 trillion in military operations from 2001-2019. In addition to the direct costs of military operations, there are also other costs associated with protecting oil and gas interests. For example, a 2019 study by the Center for American Progress estimated that the U.S. military spends around $81 billion per year on protecting global oil supplies, including the cost of maintaining a presence in key oil-producing regions, conducting patrols in the Persian Gulf, and providing security for oil infrastructure.”

If the policies of the previous administration would remain, we were a net petroleum exporter. Along with Canada and Mexico, we don’t need shit from the Middle East or anywhere else on earth. Fuck protecting the infinitely disturbed Middle East!

Electricity is sourced in the USA. Agree. But your first post told us about using wind and solar. The energy storage devices (batteries-materials) are NOT sourced here but purchased from our enemies! You avoid that discussion like the plague.

Greenhouse emissions? Give me a break! Discuss how much the USA pollutes compared with other countries please.

Policies say EV’s. Let me put this into simple terms to let you know why most of us are NOT EV positive, besides for the reasons @TraxMoe listed.

Not a one of us likes being told what to buy. Not a one of us likes what the current administration has done to attempt to MAKE us get EV’s because they wrecked our country in many ways in just two years! You sir have a common liberal mind that cannot understand any of that.

What good is that EV if you cannot charge it except at your home on your own system? You have not put forward any reasons to convince any of us. Actually if you would have said you are looking at a hybrid, I personally can understand that. But to attempt to make us believe an EV is ok in 2023? Nope not yet if at all, because the USA don’t have a plan or current resources for fueling EV’s. After the feds suck enough of you in, our electricity rates are going to be dramatically higher. What is bad is the feds are going to build the charging stations. That is socialism, sir. We live in the USA. I am a Disabled Vet along with many on here and we defended our freedom. You are complying we will not. I personally do not agree with using my money to pay you, to finance charging stations or to basically give any money directly or through tax benefits that help direct anyone to make different decisions or benefits that don’t effect 100% of us. Those tax credits and write offs for a EV purchase are not fair, period.

What do you pay for an EV for road taxes (building and maintenance dollars for your city, county, state and federal). We pay $0.15-$0.67 per gallon at the pump depending on your state. That’s $12 a Hellcat tank in California.

We know folks like you cannot be persuaded the same as you understand we will not comply and be persuaded to the other direction.

Thank you @DGatzby . I was going to way into this one but I'm done talking to these liberal minded, EV loving piss ants. I'm just saying NO! If they want to make me go EV and take my guns, I'm not hard to find.

 

[TraxMoe]

It's clear though that nobody in this thread cares about an actual comparison because EVs are so terrible. What would you pose as a better alternative way to reduce our greenhouse emissions? A lot of the policy around EVs assumes they are the best alternative but many of the drivers would consider other options.

There have been studies done on the effect of greenhouse gas emissions from the mining of the rare earth minerals required for the EV cars, from the lithium, cobalt, manganese, copper, zinc.

On the flip side that 1,000 pound battery only has approximately 140 pounds of lithium in it. Moving essentially 100,000 lbs of dirt for only 140 lbs with fossil fuels, that EV sitting in your driveway will take over 14 years to offset the carbon footprint of mining and processing. OH ! WAIT ! Those damned batteries don't last but 8 - 10 years, and to recover the 140 lbs of lithium from an expired battery costs more than the battery is worth, and the circle of life continues to degrade the environment.

Don't forget about the cobalt cathodes, how abundant is cobalt around the world that China doesn't control ? I don't think the government should be in anyone's business when it comes to economics they certainly don't have any logical thought processes that control their spending ()mad)) Those greenies don't realize they are charging the batteries with mainly fossil fuels, you buy an EV put up a Chineeeeese windmill or Chineeeese solar panels to charge your EV and leave our power grid alone. EV cars aren't the solution to greenhouse gases. Green energy is extremely expensive but you'll get hoodwinked by the people holding the strings controlling the propaganda.

These will be an experiment at reducing greenhouse gases that won't work. The greenhouse gases that China is expelling dwarfs the entirety of the civilized world. There is not a sustainable solution to reducing greenhouse gases. If you believe everything the scientists are telling you, that they know what is the cause of .01 deg C increase in global warming. Do they address the sun's increased solar activity or the fact that the elliptical orbit of the earth is on the inward track around the sun or maybe the hot-spots of the magnetic flux from the earth's core effecting the weather ? Look what the moon's gravitational pull has on the tides. Years ago the earth was much warmer and a return to warmer temperatures will accelerate the greening of the earth. Would you prefer to return to the ice age ? The reason they come up with these theories is fear of losing their grant money. How about the jet setting hypocrites flying private jets to an environmental conference. emitting greenhouse gases in a single flight that you and all your greenie friends won't offset in a lifetime. The EV evolution is about control and not saving a fucking thing.

Al Gore the whore is a bigger polluter and has a larger carbon footprint than 98% of Americans. If they are so concerned with the sea levels rising, why did Obama buy the mansion on the beach ?

From a young age you were taught to not think for yourself. If you want to save the planet, start walking everywhere.

 

[Serbaped0]

Funny to hear the rants about propaganda when you're spewing it. It's OK that you want to go through life misguided and confused. I'll stop engaging with you on this thread so you can go back to homophobic EV bashing.

 

[Boris]

You’re not supposed to bring all that up. You’ll hurt the greenie’s feelings. 😂😂

They just bring this up
https://www.motortrend.com/features/truth-about-electric-cars-ad-why-you-are-being-lied-to/

 

[Boris]

I’m with @Jimmy N. here, getting 22-24mpg’s while just cruising in my old Challenger Hellcat wasn’t an issue.

I can’t say the same about the TRX. 14mpg’s is a damn good day in that truck!

you get 14?

 

[jroyk]

Funny to hear the rants about propaganda when you're spewing it. It's OK that you want to go through life misguided and confused. I'll stop engaging with you on this thread so you can go back to homophobic EV bashing.

Thanks!

 

[DavidKFla]

The things you bring up are really important when considering the total cost and surely a lot of people miss those. You're right her on multiple angles, like the costs going up dramatically with certain 3rd party chargers. That said, I had done detailed cost analysis the EV still comes out cheaper in lifetime value.

Some notes on your concepts above:
- The payback period on the solar system is around 7 years. Make that 10 without the tax brakes. Say it makes power for 30 years (warranty ensures this). This would actually be a reduction in charging costs by around 2/3 from purchasing my own panels. This is at today's energy prices, which anyone should agree aren't likely to go down over the next 30 years. The investment is a fixed and one time cost.
- The average cost of an EV battery runs $10-$12K and can last up to 200K miles. The cost per mile here is probably better than a Hellcat when figuring $20K for an engine replacement and more for the transmission. Will the average lifespan of a Hellcat drivetrain will greatly exceed say 150K miles without rebuild or replacement?
- Gov't subsidies? Are we taking into account oil and gas subsidies and the massive defense spending that has been needed historically to keep this supply chain afloat? Brown University had done a study estimating around $4 trillion in military operations from 2001-2019. In addition to the direct costs of military operations, there are also other costs associated with protecting oil and gas interests. For example, a 2019 study by the Center for American Progress estimated that the U.S. military spends around $81 billion per year on protecting global oil supplies, including the cost of maintaining a presence in key oil-producing regions, conducting patrols in the Persian Gulf, and providing security for oil infrastructure.
- USA sourcing? Around 1/3 of the crude for our cars is imported while well over 90% of our electricity is sourced domestically. That was my original "made in USA" comment, although that veered into the physical production of components.


It's clear though that nobody in this thread cares about an actual comparison because EVs are so terrible. What would you pose as a better alternative way to reduce our greenhouse emissions? A lot of the policy around EVs assumes they are the best alternative but many of the drivers would consider other options.

Greenhouse emissions is a fucking fairytale. Carbon is a fucking fairytale. Plant life will cease to exist which in turn will kill the rest of the CARBON lifeforms on this planet.

Critical thinking isn't in your wheelhouse. Try and have a great life.

Let's show "proof of life" of your Hellcat.

 

[TraxMoe]

What is bad is the feds are going to build the charging stations. That is socialism, sir.

In addition to where the fossil fuels were dispensed, there weren't government gas stations they were installed by entrepreneurs that found a niche to provide service and repairs services along with dispensing fuel, nor were the refineries owned by the government. Fuel oils were sold by the general store for lamps. Cow Chips for cooking. Utility power lines aren't owned by the government either. So this governmental push for EV will put a strain on the grid, that will be cost prohibitive to upgrade, increased capacity of substations, transmission lines and if this experiment doesn't work how much money will have been spent ?

 

[DavidKFla]

In addition to where the fossil fuels were dispensed, there weren't government gas stations they were installed by entrepreneurs that found a niche to provide service and repairs services along with dispensing fuel, nor were the refineries owned by the government. Fuel oils were sold by the general store for lamps. Cow Chips for cooking. Utility power lines aren't owned by the government either. So this governmental push for EV will put a strain on the grid, that will be cost prohibitive to upgrade, increased capacity of substations, transmission lines and if this experiment doesn't work how much money will have been spent ?

Fossil fuels is a fairytale. Oil is a sustainable product produced by algae.

Thank the Rockefellers for this marketing ploy to drive up the price.

 

[TraxMoe]

Funny to hear the rants about propaganda when you're spewing it. It's OK that you want to go through life misguided and confused. I'll stop engaging with you on this thread so you can go back to homophobic EV bashing.

Well isn't that just capitol. The greenie doesn't have anything to support his ideals. So the typical Dumbocrats resorts to name calling. Just what the fuck is Homophobic EV bashing ? are you admitting most EV owners are a little queer to begin with ?

So let's talk about wind generation, Wind turbines under 100 kilowatts cost roughly $3,000 to $8,000 per kilowatt of capacity. A 10 kilowatt machine (the size needed to power a large home) might have an installed cost of $50,000-$80,000 (or more). These are mechanical and will need maintenance at some time during their lifetime don't forget to factor that into your spead-sheet . You may need battery storage for the windmill when the wind isn't blowing ( see the cost of that in the solar panel section ).

Now to consider Solar Panels refer to this breakdown https://www.forbes.com/home-improvement/solar/cost-of-solar-panels/for the cost of the solar panels and remember you'll also need battery storage to supplement your energy needs to get you through the night or when the Sun's intensity isn't strong enough to produce adequate power output, also the solar panel degradation will lose their output at approximately 2% annually, Currently, battery storage costs $800 – $1,500 for every kilowatt-hour of storage capacity. If you install a 5kWh storage system, that can cost you up to $7,500. For a 10 kWh storage system, the price could be at least $15,000 , Even the batteries will need replaced at some point in time. You'll be long gone before you benefit .

The only way you can justify going green is with government subsidies. The taxpayer is supporting your pipe dream and won't realize any savings from your way of life.

 

[Bobo]

Ummmmm...Just NO!!

 

[Boris]

You guys are no fun. When can we begin talking about the batteries a certain residential solar power system are using? Oh, unless they just charge off the inverter when the sun shines? Disappointed here. I was so hopeful of some more troll conversations.

Never did get to the subject of this thread. Bullshit talking about some dude in the middle of a field in Colorado that has a field of solar cells.

Remember the story about attempting to take one on the road and they spent more time over four days attempting to charge one than sleeping? Remember when the green ones caused the price of natural gas to get over $9 last year? And gas over $5 on the average? All good until they found out batteries are from China, and they blew out the power grid in California in September when they told them to put the electric cars away because they could not import enough electricity?

I do! My utility bill for heating this joint in Dec-Jan was over $600!

I'll play ball.
I like solar and EVs and normally one of the first to jump on new technology, but im very hesitant on this stuff.

Tesla Powerwall/Solar Panels.
2 Power wall system costing between $44-50k! Incentives brings it down to 25k range
Estimating 25 year life

Based on the highest electric bill I pay, I'd save about $30/month or so over 25 years with a cash layout of 44k today.
And that is if this shit lasts all 25 years.

Not really moving the needle for me

 

[TraxMoe]

I'll play ball.
I like solar and EVs and normally one of the first to jump on new technology, but im very hesitant on this stuff.

Tesla Powerwall/Solar Panels.
2 Power wall system costing between $44-50k! Incentives brings it down to 25k range
Estimating 25 year life

Based on the highest electric bill I pay, I'd save about $30/month or so over 25 years with a cash layout of 44k today.
And that is if this shit lasts all 25 years.

Not really moving the needle for me

Would you have installed Solar without the government subsidizing it ? When the Government subsidizes something to entice you to buy into this renewable energy craz it usually is only for their own demented ideas of what works and what doesn't, Solar panels degrade at approximately 2% annually, Remember the Solyndra debacle that cost the taxpayers $80 billion dollars that Obama was behind ? The government subsidized that and they went tit's up after 4 years without producing squat.

The math doesn't add up 50,000 / ( 30 X 12 ) = 138 year even at half the cost it still takes 69 years to recoup your initial investment.

 

[Boris]

Would you have installed Solar without the government subsidizing it ? When the Government subsidizes something to entice you to buy into this renewable energy craz it usually is only for their own demented ideas of what works and what doesn't, Solar panels degrade at approximately 2% annually, Remember the Solyndra debacle that cost the taxpayers $80 billion dollars that Obama was behind ? The government subsidized that and they went tit's up after 4 years without producing squat.

The math doesn't add up 50,000 / ( 30 X 12 ) = 138 year even at half the cost it still takes 69 years to recoup your initial investment.

I don't have solar and probably won't.

It doesn't pay itself back at full retail in my situation. And the sun is on my roof from the second it rises to the second it sets. No trees and the biggest part points to the south.

It requires government subsidies to even get me to look at it. But from my understanding, you still pay up front then get it back later. Using Tesla's prices and a $125/mo electric average, i'm looking at 33-34 year pay back at 50k.
The 44k package is just under 30 years.
The 24.6k quoted with Uncle Sam's help is still 16.5 years.

Thats kind of a shitty ROI IMO

 

[DGatzby]

Thank you @DGatzby . I was going to way into this one but I'm done talking to these liberal minded, EV loving piss ants. I'm just saying NO! If they want to make me go EV and take my guns, I'm not hard to find.

Thanks. If it was not my thread, I would not bother either. You know we think alike.

 

[DGatzby]

Fossil fuels is a fairytale. Oil is a sustainable product produced by algae.

Thank the Rockefellers for this marketing ploy to drive up the price.

Good point David. Nearly forgot. I actually was one of the guys who (with others) built an algae farm in NM and they produced crude oil from it. Problem; oil price went down as we finished and they sold the lock box.

What pisses me off is these screaming liberals always want to write either a sarcastic line condescending us or they outright state we don’t know shit.